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#46 2010-07-30 04:38:14

Iceman
Active Member
From: Calgary Area
Registered: 2008-10-12
Posts: 208

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

I'm curious to know how easy ILT spreads, and why it's deemed so dangerous.
I know both Ty and Rene well enough to know they have probably moved between 15 to 20 thousand birds between the 2 of them this year,  Out of all those birds, sent all over Canada, one apparently has ILT and not another single bird, so how can it be so deadly, just doesn't seem to add up.  I must be missing something!!

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#47 2010-07-30 11:34:25

Arcticsun
I Love A.C.E.
From: Wetaskiwin AB
Registered: 2009-02-02
Posts: 7074

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

Well hopefully Dr Peters will be able to she more light on all this soon.
Wasnt there a thread about ILT comeing up from imported chick or something (it is 5 am and my brain is fuzzy)  Is it possible for it to sit dormant ina  chick until it is a bit older then flair up? That would explain everything, it being a case of a couple of affected chicks stressing then flairing, but not shedding where they were brooded. I have no idea, just early morning musings.


Arcticsun Frickin Chicken ranch
A rainbow of colour in every egg basket!
Life is too short to to take ones self too seriously
Hug your chicken today

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#48 2010-07-30 12:46:32

poplar girl
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Athabasca, Alberta
Registered: 2010-04-10
Posts: 1472

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate that all of this information is being posted for other A.C.E. members to read and learn from. This situation must be increadably stressfull and heartbreaking for those involved yet for the greater good people are posting everything freely and openly. For the most part differences of opinion are being respected if not agreed with.

I thank everyone for this and as Articsun said early I am proud to be a members (granted a new and relatively uneducated member) of A.C.E.

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#49 2010-07-30 13:27:22

Skeffling Lavender Farm
I Love A.C.E.
From: Wiarton ON - Bruce Peninsula
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 6568
Website

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

:iagree: with Poplar girl.  I know must be so difficult and upsetting and appreciate the opportunity to learn from all involved.  It is hard to know what to say, I hope people get the answers they need swiftly.


www.skefflinglavenderfarm.weebly.com  2012 Breeding quite friendly Lavender & Wheaten Ameraucanas, Lavender Orpingtons, Euskal Oiloas (Basque hens), Partridge Chanteclers, Black Pendesencas & Sumatras

Easy Chickenry and Homesteading articles

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#50 2010-07-30 14:22:12

katzee
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Edgewood BC
Registered: 2010-03-25
Posts: 468

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

Iceman wrote:

I'm curious to know how easy ILT spreads, and why it's deemed so dangerous.
I know both Ty and Rene well enough to know they have probably moved between 15 to 20 thousand birds between the 2 of them this year,  Out of all those birds, sent all over Canada, one apparently has ILT and not another single bird, so how can it be so deadly, just doesn't seem to add up.  I must be missing something!!

Iceman, I think it is the big poultry farms that are the most at risk as their birds live under very stressful conditions, and it hits them in the pockets, with production loss and mortality. I imagine it spreads much worse between in those farms and the birds are unable to deal with it as well as our birds, who live under much better conditions.

I sent in three of the bantam cochins that I got at Ty's place, originally from Renee, the frizzled roo, the frizzled hen, and the white hen.
This was upon Dr Cox's advice, he said it would be best to send in at least 2 and that more would be better. He noted that I could send in up to five at the same time. I was not wanting to part with any of my new birds, but sent the sickest. I posted pictures of the two hens in another thread, trying to figure out why they looked sick, I will post their pictures again.

The frizzled hen by far the illest, she was very listless, with the nasal discharge, but it was her rales (loud guggling breathing) that really got to me. She however seemed to have clear eyes and was still eating. The white hen did not seem too ill, mostly listless with the swollen eyes and discharge from the eyes as well as nasal discharge, she too was eating. The frizzled roo, was running around trying to breed the large cochins, he too had the swollen swollen face, but it was the his Cloacal inflammation that made me send him in, I thought maybe he looked that way because of his trying to breed everything. None of them had bloody mucus.

This is the main site I used for reference, posted by another user. http://partnersah.vet.cornell.edu/avian … isease/499
I tried to tell myself that he looked that way only because he was trying to breed everything like mad. I would have thought he would have been sicker. This was likely a relapse for these birds and not a brand new outbreak, I am assuming that is why they did not look sicker.

I should also note that I am a paramedic so am accustomed to researching medical type issues, not usually of the avian variety mind you. I also know that you don't need all the signs of an illness to have that illness. I was not sure what this was, but I needed to know. Yes so many avian illnesses sound so much the same.

The vet at the lab in abbotsford, confirmed that two of them were positive for ILT, he did not say about the third. I don't know which two tested positive yet, or if the third one also tested positive, later. When I get the official report, I will post what I know, and if I can post the full report I will do that.


http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss93/katzeekat_photo/IMG_3070.jpg
It was this birds droopy eyes and listlessness that made me send her in

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss93/katzeekat_photo/IMG_3072.jpg
This Hen was the one with the rales and the most nasal discharge


Please send email,, PM gets too overcrowded, ,, --Silkies _ Show girl project
Double laced Blue Barnvelders _ Blue Partridge Brahmas_B/B/S Standard Cochins _many colors Bantam Cochins
Bielefelder_ Cream legbar_Swedish Flowerpot_ Blue egg Naked necks_ Coronation Sussex_B/B/S and some Blue wheaten Ameraucana, Many imported from Greenfire. Geese, Muscovy turkeys mixed flock

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#51 2010-07-31 04:15:59

katzee
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Edgewood BC
Registered: 2010-03-25
Posts: 468

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

A very quick update, Just got home from a day in town.

I got a call on my cell today from Vicki Bowes an Avian Pathologist. Now I am really frustrated, and have a bunch more reading to do.
I will list some of what she told me as I understood it.

1. All tested possitive for the ILT DNA virus in their bloodwork. All tested possitive for Mycoplasma

2. ILT can be tested using a blood sample on live birds,,, at least to see if the ILT DNA is there, not if they have the disease. She said they test that way all the time when checking to see how well a vaccine is working

3. She said these 3 birds did not have the ILT lesions normally found in ILT and that it was primarily the Mycoplasma that was causing their illness,,, complicated by the ILT.

4. She said they may or may not have been shedding the ILT virus, but that it was quite possible due to their immune system being busy battling the Mycoplasma.

5. She said they could have gotten the ILT DNA from a chicken shedding the virus, either from being ill itself or from having been given a ILT vaccine. She said this could have happened at a show ect.

6. She also wanted to confirm that these birds had never been vaccinated, because a vacinated bird would have the same ILT DNA results (at least that is what I understand).

7. Testing possitive for ILT in a DNA test is not the same as having ILT

8. She said that Mycoplasma can be transmitted through the egg. AAHHHH! I am gonna scream. So do I throw out the eggs I collected from the cochins? Arge, Those blue cochins are very beautiful and I was looking forward to hatching a few eggs. Now what? she suggested it would be safest to throw them out, but that they might be okay.

9. As I understood it,  she said there are different ways of dealing with Mycoplasma, some being to help the bird to recover, once it has recovered, it is then not sick. (I am screaming again) But that it can be a carrier and give this to other birds whenever it becomes stressed, and that many people simply give their birds vitamins and tetracycline on a regular basis to keep their birds healthy(???) Bizzare. Some people cull birds with Mycoplasma and that their are many different opinions.

10. She said this is a case of Mycoplasma being complicated by the positive ILT test,,,


11. I don't know anything really about Mycoplasma,, so this will be my new thing to research,,,, explains why, these cochins did not show all the signs of ILT,,,,, No, not really as "some cases of ILT are very mild" (screaming here)


I am tired and want to have a quick read through the posts and go to bed,,,,I have chicks hatching in the bator,,, The brahmas looks so cute, thanks Survivor.,, more hatching to come

I will post again if I have forgotten anything.

Renee, Ty, keep strong, I know this has to be as frustrating for you as it is for me,,,, maybe even more so. I hope they get this figured out,,, and I am certainly learning a lot.

G,night all

Last edited by katzee (2010-08-06 22:54:50)


Please send email,, PM gets too overcrowded, ,, --Silkies _ Show girl project
Double laced Blue Barnvelders _ Blue Partridge Brahmas_B/B/S Standard Cochins _many colors Bantam Cochins
Bielefelder_ Cream legbar_Swedish Flowerpot_ Blue egg Naked necks_ Coronation Sussex_B/B/S and some Blue wheaten Ameraucana, Many imported from Greenfire. Geese, Muscovy turkeys mixed flock

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#52 2010-07-31 04:53:39

Arcticsun
I Love A.C.E.
From: Wetaskiwin AB
Registered: 2009-02-02
Posts: 7074

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

Holy Cow.
This is so complicated. I feel so badly for all of you, and I hope some sanity comes about soon.
  :coffeebusy:


Arcticsun Frickin Chicken ranch
A rainbow of colour in every egg basket!
Life is too short to to take ones self too seriously
Hug your chicken today

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#53 2010-07-31 12:39:44

thomas h
Growing Member
From: Hammond, Ontario
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 108

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

stress...

neo clor should have cleared that problem ..

maybe ilt  is>>>>>>>>> anywhere .

and the water at at good ph .....
i treat my chickens sortof like,,
pigeons stress, anti biotics and then vacinate ,,

all stress related in the bacterial soup we call clean air..just my opinion..

i vaccum my indoor coups so that ido not breath the dust...and dust mask.
the exhauts are piped outside .

Last edited by thomas h (2010-07-31 12:41:46)

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#54 2010-07-31 17:01:41

Herbwalker
Growing Member
From: Alberta Beach / Edmonton
Registered: 2010-07-13
Posts: 99
Website

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

Took a short look through a medical journal database and found some interesting stuff - wholistic medicine wise. There weren't a lot of studies, but... well... have a look.

Aremisia arborescens and Artemisia herba-alba may be useful treatment for Mycoplasma species caused illness.
Garlic had mild activity against the species.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17969714

Lactobacillus, orally, may be another useful treatment as this study on women showed. This is the healthy bacteria in yogurt and kefir.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17045832

Tea Tree Oil
http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte … d=16787951
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11828621

Fermented wheat germ extract resulted in “no mycoplasma was reisolated from brin, liver, spleen, heart, or kidneys…and the number of mycoplasma isolations from the repiratory tract samples was less frequent” This was done on chickens.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15554060

Herb extracts that promoted healthy bacteria while inhibiting unhealthy bacteria were helpful in chickens infected with Mycoplasma gallisepticum. These herbs were Lentinus edodes extract (the strongest acting of those tested), Tremella fuciformis exteact, and Astragalus membranaceus Radix extract.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14979567

“Dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids modulate responses of pigs to Mycoplasma hyopneumoniae infection”
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/126/6/1541

Tea – the catechins in tea may be useful prophylactics against M. pneumoniae
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1402093

I think I may start feeding my chickens yogurt.


Buckeyes and Americaunas. Hopefully bees again in a year or so.

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#55 2010-07-31 20:00:12

Farmerette
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Central Alberta
Registered: 2008-11-06
Posts: 880
Website

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

I milk my cows and we have so much milk that quite often there are extra buckets here and there. I let them sit outside in the sun for a day and the whole thing turns to yoghurt. They LOVE it. Every bird in hearing distance comes running and they dive into the stuff. It takes about an hour after they're finished just to get themselves cleaned off. Your birds will certainly not complain about the extra dairy!


I'm not the farmer's wife, I'm the farmer!
Also an Independent Distributor of Jeunesse Global's cutting-edge Anti-aging products.

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#56 2010-08-01 15:28:18

PrettyFeathers
Growing Member
From: Chilliwack, B.C.
Registered: 2009-09-03
Posts: 137
Website

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

I found this info on Mareks and thought it was quite interesting. I am not saying I agree with it but think that there may be another avenue to treating our birds?? I am looking for info on ILT, I have never heard of it before so find this all very informative.
"This isn't an emergency, just a helpful tidbit of information to help.  Despite what you may have heard, there IS a cure for Marek's Disease.  It is a homeopathic remedy called "Hypericum."  Hypericum is a small creeping herb that, when used hollistically, numbs nerves and dulls pain.  When given to a bird suffering from the symptoms of Marek's Disease, it will cure the bird by working on the theory that "like cures like," in other words, by giving the bird the symptoms it will take the symptoms away.  I've used this herb with great success to fully cure birds of Marek's Disease.  You can fnd Hypericum at health food stores, $8 for 100 tablets.  Hypericum must be diluted before it can be used:

- 1 tablespoon of DISTILLED water per tablet Hypericum (must be distilled water, tap water is ionized and will deactivate the Hypericum)
- MUST be mixed in a GLASS or PLASTIC bowl (metal with react with the water and herb)
- drip 5-10 drops (bantam) or 10-15 drops (large fowl) on the afflicted bird's tongue.  Be sure the bird rubs its beak together because the Hypericum MUST touch the sinuses (located on the roof of the mouth) in order to work
- treat every 12 hours (morning and night) with a fresh batch
- recovery may be as quick as 1 day or as slow as several months

The treatment works best if you begin treating early.  If you delay treatment, the Hypericum may not work or it may be a very slow recovery.  IF YOU OVERDOSE YOUR BIRDS ON HYPERICUM, don't worry.  The bird will exhibit extreme symptoms, and make a drastic improvment within a 24 hours.  Hypericum is also helpful for pain.  Only treat birds that are showing symptoms.

HOW CAN I TELL IF MY BIRD HAS MAREK'S DISEASE?

Check your flock history.  Marek's Disease affects birds as early as 6 months of age.  Symtoms occur most commonly between 6-8 months of age; however, any age bird can become sick, it just becomes less common with age.  The incubation period is 2 weeks.

SYMPTOMS INCLUDE: sudden death (fairly common), depression (common), gradual weight loss (fairly common), neck paralysis (not common), paleness (in conjunction with other symtoms), wing paralysis (common), leg paralysis (most common), star-gazing (fairly common), extreme sudden emaciation (rare), mishapen pupil (not common), gray iris (not common), crazy behavior (rare), unresponsive (common), internal tumor growth (not common), tumors on feather follicles (not common), fearful (not common)

What do you think? Quite interesting isn't it?


Sales of Pure Heritage Breed Chicks and Hatching Eggs. Specializing in, Blue Laced Red Wyandotte, Black Copper Marans, Lavender Orpington, Blue Orpington , Buff Orpington, Black Orpington, Coronation Sussex, Silver Sussex, Cream Legbar and Bielefelder

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#57 2010-08-01 15:54:05

coopslave
I Love A.C.E.
From: Crossfield AB
Registered: 2010-02-10
Posts: 2456

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

Interesting, thanks for sharing with us.  It is great to learn everything that is available out there. 

One thing to consider, a bird can survive Mareks but it does continues to shed it and be a carrier once it does survive.  I am not sure how this `cure`addresses that.  It is much better to try to develop a resistance to it in your flock.  I suppose if you have mostly resistant birds, than a few carriers are not an issue (unless you are selling) but you would not want to breed from you carriers, only your resistant birds.

I would be interested to know exactly how this cure works as I have seen an autopsy on a Mareks bird and there are usually a few tumours present.

In my mind it is much better to keep the birds that survive an outbreak, with no symptoms, and breed with them.  You will have a stronger, more resistant flock in the long run.


<")3 quiet hen      >")3 noisy hen

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#58 2010-08-01 15:58:03

ipf
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Salt Spring Island
Registered: 2009-03-01
Posts: 1360

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

While there is evidence out there that hypericum (St John's wort) suppresses herpes virus activity (in both humans and chickens), I haven't seen any solid literature that suggests an actual cure. Someone would make billions if it were true.

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#59 2010-08-01 16:03:40

Grandma Art
I Love A.C.E.
From: Carseland Alberta
Registered: 2009-10-05
Posts: 2072
Website

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

T0  Katzee - I am curious Katzee, are you still going with your original plans to starting all over again  or are you thinking other avenues now?    :confused:


The windy home to Registered Gypsy Vanners,  Reg. Shelties, Cuckoo Marans,  Heritage  turkeys,  Muscovy ducks, white and colored,  2 llamas, and my loving husband that puts up with us all.   God bless his lil heart .......

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#60 2010-08-01 16:18:18

PrettyFeathers
Growing Member
From: Chilliwack, B.C.
Registered: 2009-09-03
Posts: 137
Website

Re: Sick New Birds. What has happened and ongoing updates.

I found this info regarding the post on Hypericum.
I quote "The person who created these is suspect in their chicken knowledge. I would not recommend following either of these.  Alternative medicine has it's merits, but these recipes look more like- 'lets see what I have in my cupboard and try to rationalize why I should shove this down my chicken's throat'
Hypericum aka St. John's wort- used in human alternative medicine for some depression disorders, alcoholism, etc. Also believed to have some antibacterial properties. Depression is not the issue with the Mareks virus, nor alcoholism. Mild antibacterial properties is of interest to me, but Mareks is not a bacteria- it is a virus, the birds succumb to progressive paralysis of major nerves (due to growth of tumors)- not a secondary bacterial infection. So I do not think hypericum is useful in this case. The classic Mareks bird has progressive leg paralysis due to viral induced tumors in the sciatic nerves. These birds do not typically get better. If you have a bird that seemed to have Mareks symptoms, but got better with TLC, if probably did not have Mareks- it probably had something else that cause weak legs- like a pelvic fracture. Always remember the diagnosis is not made on looking at a weak or limping bird- it is a diagnosis on necropsy.

Also remember that TLC to a mareks bird is prolonging the time that this bird is spreading infectious feather dander all over your farm. If you suspect Mareks in your flock, confirm it with a necropsy at your lab, start culling affected birds, and replace only with properly vaccinated chickens. The virus will stay active in the environment for years."

Just another person's opinion.


Sales of Pure Heritage Breed Chicks and Hatching Eggs. Specializing in, Blue Laced Red Wyandotte, Black Copper Marans, Lavender Orpington, Blue Orpington , Buff Orpington, Black Orpington, Coronation Sussex, Silver Sussex, Cream Legbar and Bielefelder

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