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#1 2010-09-24 20:22:49

cayuga26
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Rockport Ontario
Registered: 2008-05-26
Posts: 629

Rare pig Breeds and registeries

I have a bit of a question for anyone who might be more insightful towards pig registry than I (I have no experience)

How much does it generally cost to register a pig (specifically a large black pig).  The reason I ask is that I recently saw an add on Rare Breed’s Canada for male large blacks and they were $400 with papers $100 without.  I cant imagine that it costs anywhere close to $300.

I cant seem to wrap my head around that one.  Seems to me to be slightly counter productive to the breed as a whole.  But than I cant quite wrap my head around hog registries in Canada to begin with.  With so few registered animals and such close relations they pretty much seem to be already doomed so to speak based on pedigree.  Even importing “new” blood from other countries in most cases won’t help much in the long term.

Anyways just found that interesting and having a hard time weeding though to the facts about our rare breeds of pigs in Canada and weather there is any point to keeping the “registered” lines of many breeds going from what I understand of pig breeding, linebreeding is not an option as defects will creep in rather quickly sometimes with irreversible results so not like many of our other livestock breeds in that respect.

I would love to start a good debate on the topic of rare pig breeds and registries.


Standard Bred Cayuga Ducks, Khaki Campbell Ducks, Partridge Chantecler Chickens and Narragansett Turkeys. 
Registered Tamworth pigs and Oberhasli goats

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#2 2010-09-24 21:34:14

hiddenmeadow
I Love A.C.E.
Registered: 2009-01-15
Posts: 2731

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

bella trix wrote:

I thought it was against the Pedigree act andthere for illegal (and maybe that's just dogs) to charge anything extra for registering animals.

Will check and see if I can find anything.

you are right, you are not allowed to sell it for more as a registered animal.
people do though, I paid 1250 for a highland heifer, registered stock, but if I wanted registration her price jumped to a whopping 1350!
I assume their tactic is breeding stock price versus meat price but you cant register it after you buy it they have to.
Large blacks seem to run high on the pricing around here they are 450 registered.
http://www.clrc.ca/FeeSchedules.shtml

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#3 2010-09-24 23:30:47

gubi
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From: Walton, On
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 855
Website

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

here's a link to the actual fees.  There are not just the registration fee but also a transfer fee which differs if you are a member or not.  The price difference would be breeding stock vs. meat
http://www.clrc.ca/60fees.pdf


Herd of Brown Swiss, grey call ducks, ameraucanas(EE), Welsumer, Appenzeller Spitzhauben, Euskal Oiloa, blue and partridge silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#4 2010-09-25 00:34:48

gubi
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From: Walton, On
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 855
Website

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

Here's the link to the animal pedigree act.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/PDF/Statute/A/A-11.2.pdf
Every breed association has it's own constitution too! 
So you are saying I'm not allowed to sell my breeding stock for more then meat price? :confused: I couldn't find anything about that in the pedigree act but government documents bore me and I never get very far reading them.  It would be kind of silly too if you couldn't sell breeding animal for more.


Herd of Brown Swiss, grey call ducks, ameraucanas(EE), Welsumer, Appenzeller Spitzhauben, Euskal Oiloa, blue and partridge silkies and a few more heritage hens

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#5 2010-09-25 04:13:00

hiddenmeadow
I Love A.C.E.
Registered: 2009-01-15
Posts: 2731

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

I agree.
the same animal at two different prices like my cow I bought is illegal, a cull vs stock should have two different prices, I wouldn't expect to pay 400 for something worth 100.

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#6 2010-09-25 04:57:52

Brook
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Nightingale (Strathmore)
Registered: 2009-07-22
Posts: 1262

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

Perhaps the unregistered ones are from a different lineage that is not registered because of whatever reason (lesser quality?), and their registered stock is what costs more?

That is probably not the case but it would make sense.


Environmental Technologist, Stay-at-home Mom, & City Chick that recently moved out to the country!
Mixed flock of laying hens & Mixed herd of meat Rabbits
Lovin' Life!

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#7 2010-09-25 05:08:07

Rosewood Farm
I Love A.C.E.
From: Barriere, BC
Registered: 2009-02-25
Posts: 4916

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

I've never heard of the legislation of any Canadian government being able to set what I charge for my livestock.  I have offerred livestock for sale with a registered or an unregistered price.  The last buyer chose the registered prices .  I'm not prepared to sell livestock at unregistered prices and then have the buyer sell the offspring as registered or purebred stock with an accompanying economic gain.  There are more costs involved in registering livestock as our farm either has to registered or we pay double the fees.  Then the animal has to registered and if sold then a transfer fee is payable.  There is also the costs involved with tattoooing which in turn requires fee for registering the tattoo letters, the equipment (we paid $16 for a small bundle of foam strips this year), and the time and effort for 3 of us to convince the heifer that she should have a bunch of needles poked through her ear followed soon after by a stylish tag in the opposite ear. I believe there is something in the legislation of not being able to term the livestock as "purebred" if it is not registered although it is mostly dog breeders pushing this point.


Formerly known as Survivor"
Rosewood Farm, breeder of Highland Cattle.
Hope to breed Black Cochins, White Chanteclers, Blue Laced Red Wyandottes and Gold Laced Wyandottes for 2014.
Blue Slate and Beltsville turkeys for 2014.

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#8 2010-09-26 00:04:07

Omega Blue Farms
Banned
From: Qualicum Beach, BC
Registered: 2010-01-26
Posts: 278
Website

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

I have read the Pedigree Act several times and do not recall any attempt to regulate livestock pricing. I strongly suspect that the notion that one cannot sell an animal for more if registered is nothing more than an urban myth. If not, I would like to see reference to the actual law.



"I believe there is something in the legislation of not being able to term the livestock as "purebred" if it is not registered although it is mostly dog breeders pushing this point."

and a certain poultry breeder. According to Canadian Law, (pedigree act mentioned above), there is no such thing as purebred poultry and therefore selling birds as purebred is illegal. What we have in Canada are Standard Bred, not Purebred.


"64.h) offer to sell, contract to sell or sell, as a
purebred of a breed, any animal that is not
registered or eligible to be registered as a
purebred by the association authorized to
register animals of that breed or by the Corporation;"

Last edited by Omega Blue Farms (2010-09-26 00:14:18)


APA Grand Master Breeder of Rhode Island Red, Black Muscovy, Bronze Turkey, & African Geese. Also breeding Araucana, Ameraucana, & Malay standard chickens. Blue, & Chocolate Muscovies, Saxony, & Khaki Campbell ducks. Blackwinged/Sweetgrass style Turkeys.

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#9 2010-09-26 13:53:59

Omega Blue Farms
Banned
From: Qualicum Beach, BC
Registered: 2010-01-26
Posts: 278
Website

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

bella trix wrote:

What you can't do is claim the animal is PUREBRED and then not provide registration papers. So if you want to charge two prices, the animal without papers, but way of the act, can't be sold as purebred.  And it can't be put forward as such. Hence, you can't charge extra for registration papers if you deem the animal a purebred.

Hmmm... the way I read the act, it seems to treat "registered" and "registerable" the same way. Both can be sold as purebred. One can sell a "registerable" animal without papers and leave the paper chasing up to the consumer.

David, thanks for some valuable insight.


APA Grand Master Breeder of Rhode Island Red, Black Muscovy, Bronze Turkey, & African Geese. Also breeding Araucana, Ameraucana, & Malay standard chickens. Blue, & Chocolate Muscovies, Saxony, & Khaki Campbell ducks. Blackwinged/Sweetgrass style Turkeys.

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#10 2010-09-27 13:45:27

cayuga26
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Rockport Ontario
Registered: 2008-05-26
Posts: 629

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

Hmmm this sparked a lot of really good conversation

First off I just want to clarify that I don’t see any problem selling a breeding animal for more than a cull/meat animal.  That makes sense to me as you are passing on a better animal.  The problem I had with the original add was that the price difference was for the same animals one price if you wanted them for bacon and another if you wanted them for breeding basically (registered).

I guess not having any mammal species at this time (only keep poultry which have no registry) I have a hard time reading constantly that “so and so breed is rare and needs more people to eat/use it” than to see the flip side of things when those who have them seem to contradict the notion of increasing there numbers.

To me it seems we want far more registered hogs of our truly rare breeds.  Though we still have to select good animals (not registering everything and breeding from all young produced) it seems like every breeder of rare pigs would benefit from additional farmers/homesteaders having animals and having a larger herd size.

Of course the problem now is as was mentioned the “rules” have dwindled the population sizes of so many breeds in Canada.  It is likely well beyond the means of many who would keep rare breeds and use them the way they were indented. 

This notion of closed registries for rare breeds also seems rather like an oxymoron to me as well.  I think I can start to appreciate why more people crossbreed livestock.  It all stems from the registries.  All the “bad” things you hear about registered animals (lack of vigour, temperament, size etc that often deteriorate over time) have some basis to them.

After reading this thread it seems unlikely that the vast majority of our “rare” mammal breeds will recover since the “industry” that surrounds them is generally fairly unfriendly to newcomers who may pick up the torch.  Not at all like the poultry world where many breeds became “rare” and “ruined” so to speak but we can work back from that and improve the animals.  The restrictions imposed by most registries really seems to work in the opposite fashion once the animal “falls from favour”. 

It is funny actually what was mentioned about the “purbead” animals in the pedigree act (I have not read it yet just to let everyone know).  How a breed name cannot legally be applied to an animal that does not have papers.  To me it sounds like the first step towards proprietary stock.  Not that any one person owns the Tamworth Pig, but all animals which are papered are instantly “superior” to any animal that is not.

I guess bottom line I see little effort by the registeries which regulate each breed to actually help improve the number in existence.  So I guess the bigger issue here becomes are we continuing to keep breeds like the Tamworth around because of there usefulness or because of there rarity (much like another chicken related post listed elsewhere on the forum).  If we were more interested in usefulness more animals would be registered and breeders would not sell “breeding quality” stock unregistered period.  If we care more about rarity than restricting the number of “breeder quality” animals registered helps with that (since only the registered ones show up in censuses like what Rare Breeds Canada does). 

So really are we helping them or helping ourselves on this one.  I guess this is where breeders need to look at there motives for keeping the animal.  If your prices for selling “registered” animals are prohibitive to prospective people who might help increase the breed’s numbers are you simply propagating “rare” and “valuable” animals because they are “rare” and you keep them that way?

Perhaps my outlook on this is way off but as with the standards sometimes genetic expression in an animal is not reflected in the governing bodies who “manage” said breeds.


Standard Bred Cayuga Ducks, Khaki Campbell Ducks, Partridge Chantecler Chickens and Narragansett Turkeys. 
Registered Tamworth pigs and Oberhasli goats

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#11 2010-11-25 00:11:43

katzee
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Edgewood BC
Registered: 2010-03-25
Posts: 468

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

cayuga26 wrote:

Hmmm this sparked a lot of really good conversation

First off I just want to clarify that I don’t see any problem selling a breeding animal for more than a cull/meat animal.  That makes sense to me as you are passing on a better animal.  The problem I had with the original add was that the price difference was for the same animals one price if you wanted them for bacon and another if you wanted them for breeding basically (registered).
....................................................................................

It is funny actually what was mentioned about the “purebead” animals in the pedigree act (I have not read it yet just to let everyone know).  How a breed name cannot legally be applied to an animal that does not have papers.  To me it sounds like the first step towards proprietary stock.  Not that any one person owns the Tamworth Pig, but all animals which are papered are instantly “superior” to any animal that is not.
.....................................................................................................

  If we were more interested in usefulness more animals would be registered and breeders would not sell “breeding quality” stock unregistered period.  If we care more about rarity than restricting the number of “breeder quality” animals registered helps with that (since only the registered ones show up in censuses like what Rare Breeds Canada does).

So really are we helping them or helping ourselves on this one.  I guess this is where breeders need to look at there motives for keeping the animal.  If your prices for selling “registered” animals are prohibitive to prospective people who might help increase the breed’s numbers are you simply propagating “rare” and “valuable” animals because they are “rare” and you keep them that way?

Perhaps my outlook on this is way off but as with the standards sometimes genetic expression in an animal is not reflected in the governing bodies who “manage” said breeds.

:goodpost:
Very good post!

I like the idea of registering animals and livestock,,, in order to prove age, Lineage, so that we can avoid excessive inbreeding ect,, in order to help and improve the breed.

Not as a way to monopolize who can breed and who can't,,, based not on the animals quality but on the price paid for the animal. I have seen many registered animals, that were a sorry representation of a breed, being bred only to make money,,, and these breeders are able to charge more simply because they are registered,,, and people gullible enough to buy them.

To sell a good breeding quality animal with a non-breeding agreement is in my oppinion detrimental to the breed being bred,, and is only serving to allow poor breeders to charge more for registered animals that are a far cry from quality breeding stock, simply because they have papers.

Being registered does not magically mean that an animal is of breeding quality and being unregistered does not mean that the animal is of poor quality.

We have dairy cows,,, my husband has chosen not to register them as we do not raise them to sell and it is a needless expense and extra paperwork in his opinion,,, I would like to register them,,, only because we can and it would be easier to keep track of each animals genetics,, hubby feels he does just fine with his own record keeping. If they have papers or not, will not change the individual animal.

If I have a choice of the very same animal registered for a slighty higher amount (to cover registration costs)then one that is not, I would easily choose registered, because I like having the history of that animal and like to be able to offer it. I feel offended when people only use a registry as a means to monopolize a breed and not as the very useful tool that is.


Please send email,, PM gets too overcrowded, ,, --Silkies _ Show girl project
Double laced Blue Barnvelders _ Blue Partridge Brahmas_B/B/S Standard Cochins _many colors Bantam Cochins
Bielefelder_ Cream legbar_Swedish Flowerpot_ Blue egg Naked necks_ Coronation Sussex_B/B/S and some Blue wheaten Ameraucana, Many imported from Greenfire. Geese, Muscovy turkeys mixed flock

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#12 2010-11-26 14:53:45

~EdgewoodAcres~
Growing Member
From: Irricana, AB
Registered: 2010-09-07
Posts: 31

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

I have been buying Berkshires for 3 years now and always get 2 prices.  This seems fair. I am interested in meat hogs and do not require or want to breed the animals for resale.  Therefore I go for the cheaper unregistered animals.  However, if I wanted to start a purebreed breeding program, I would have to pay another producer a premium for his respected Purebreed breeding stock.  This is just business, and it makes good sense to me.
Adam

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#13 2010-11-29 20:36:17

cayuga26
A.C.E. Addicted
From: Rockport Ontario
Registered: 2008-05-26
Posts: 629

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of rare breeds.

I totally agree with the economics of livestock and the difference between a market for registered and unregistered stock.  If your buying weaner’s with the intent of making market hogs than there is no point of paying for the registration papers.  You can’t eat paper and your customers won’t want to pay for something they can’t eat (since the point of a market hog is to produce meat).

I guess from a strictly market point of view there is no real issue here at all with the currant registration of livestock breeds since the market will dictate weather the animal has value to society or not.  But the issue I think many feel is that sometimes markets can go in a “unnatural” direction and sometimes valuable resources get left behind.  Rare hogs, cattle, poultry etc are all the “leftovers” so to speak.  These animals are essentially of no importance economically so from one standpoint it seems counterproductive to limit there numbers even further buy siphoning off animals otherwise suitable for breeding as unregistered since they will never contribute to the gene pool of the breed.

Personally I see little value in registration of hogs since they breed in a manner similar to poultry and can be altered in a reasonably short period of time.  Registration of hogs is essentially a status thing for the most part.  Organizations interested in the long term genetic integrity of hog breeds would probably greatly benefit by looking at populations which fit the breed standard and tracking how rare the animals are in that manner. 

All that being said if the Tamworth for example was to become a truly marketable hog breed than my outlook might change since it ends up being a supply in demand sort of market and having larger numbers of animals means fewer of them are needed in the breeding pool.  Simple population dynamics basically.


Standard Bred Cayuga Ducks, Khaki Campbell Ducks, Partridge Chantecler Chickens and Narragansett Turkeys. 
Registered Tamworth pigs and Oberhasli goats

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#14 2011-09-27 22:09:48

chitaquarott
A.C.E. Addicted
From: spencerville, ontario
Registered: 2008-05-30
Posts: 1310

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

Purebred dogs are commonly sold as pet/cull or show/breeding quality yes, and a limited registration is provided to the Buyer of pet stock.
This is not the practise in purebred livestock. Those that are considered culls/meat do not get registered. Those required for breeding purposes are registered and sold for breeding. No big thing. The better quality hog/heifer/ whatever is going to be bred by the purchaser. I see no reason that the breeder should not ask more for his breeding quality stock.

We will not sell gilts/boars unless they are registered and of quality. All boar piglets are castrated unless they are bought and paid for prior to castration.
And many pig breeders are doing exactly the same thing. The purchaser is going to make money on breeding that animal, the seller has paid a premium for registered stock, why shouldn't the seller demand a higher price for breeding stock free of faults.

just my 2 cents


Home of dark brahma standards, black langshan,  ameracauna, buff orpington, coronation sussex, australorp, bourbon red turkeys, naragansett,  jersey giants, sebastopol geese, two quarter horses and Berkshire pigs and highland heifers

Please email directly vs. Pm Please.   chitaquarott@ripnet.com

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#15 2011-12-20 12:13:29

chitaquarott
A.C.E. Addicted
From: spencerville, ontario
Registered: 2008-05-30
Posts: 1310

Re: Rare pig Breeds and registeries

That is very true Schemgal, and I do agree. Many folks don't know or want to know which birds to keep for breeding. They just want a particular breed. As long as it resembles that breed it's all fine with them. I cannot sell eggs to people and say every chick or any of the chicks will be of exhibition quality. Only that they are prodgeny of birds that meet the APA standard. I really hate selling eggs because of this variable and the condition of eggs when they arrive that I have no control over.
I have the utmost respect for those who are willing to invest money and time to purchase birds already assessed and showing true breeding quality.
Those folks don't take shortcuts, and breed for ten generations to try to make their line better, producing a load of out of standard poultry that will undoubtably reproduce more and so on.

just my thoughts,,,


Home of dark brahma standards, black langshan,  ameracauna, buff orpington, coronation sussex, australorp, bourbon red turkeys, naragansett,  jersey giants, sebastopol geese, two quarter horses and Berkshire pigs and highland heifers

Please email directly vs. Pm Please.   chitaquarott@ripnet.com

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